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Start raising a new pet, and I am going to eat it.

Discussion in 'Food and Drink' started by schanop, Oct 9, 2015.

  1. Dang... All of those things look yummy! My experience with sourdough is not that great... One day the bread is good (in the oven it rises well), the other the bread is flat (tasty, but flat and obviously very dense)... Can I ask you what are you time for the 1st and 2nd "rise" (in France we call it "pointage" for the 1st rise and "apprêt" for the 2nd). I think mine are too short (I never see the dough rise, even if I wait for 6 hours...). However, I think I use the sourdough when it's ready (approx. maximum rise).
    I never tested a pizza with it though! For that I stick to the yeast :D Minimum amount and a lot of time in the fridge!
  2. schanop

    schanop Founding Member

    Hi Benichka, my current sourdough schedule is as follow:
    1. Take starter out from the fridge, split in two halves. Feed both halves, and put the fridge half back in the fridge, the other stay on bench top.
    2. Keep feeding it one or two more time, until it is fairly alive and ripe.
    3. Mix the dough, without salt. Autolyse for 40minutes to 1hour.
    4. Add salt, and fold and turn every half hour.
    5. Once the time from 3 have reached around 4 hours (bulk, fermentation time, first rise time etc), shape the dough and put it in banneton.
    6. Put the dough in the fridge and left it overnight, so this could be 12 hours - 18 hours for second rise.
    7. Take dough out from the fridge, score, and bake in preheated combi steam oven at 225*c with 100% humidity for 15 minutes, and 225*c with 0% humidity around 20-30 minutes depending on the loaf.
    I have been trying to fit it into my daily schedule, so timing is from many sources. 4 hours bulk fermentation or first rise before shaping seems to be quite common though, then it is either a short second rise 1-2 hours before baking at room temperature or a long rise in the fridge. Temperature is from my own experiment trying to adapt many sources for a domestic combi steam oven.

    For starter, rye flour is a recommendation for fool proof starter keeping. Myself, it has been 50% rye, 50% white bread flour from the start. Another key is perhaps activity of starter before mixing it into a dough. If it is alive at that stage, your dough should rise.
  3. Thanks!
    I noticed that the starter with rye is way more active! For now I just feed it with "T65" flour (don't know the equivalent in Australia, but it's basically the first flour after the "pastry flour" that you can take for making bread; so, highly "refined", it's used to make kind of a white bread).
    I'll try this method of yours :) What are the rise percentage of your bread after first and second rise (well I guess it isn't that obvious for your first rise if you fold it every half hour...). Does the dough rise by 50% ? Double ?
    Fitting it into a daily schedule can be hard with sourdough, considering all the hours you have to wait :D For that reason I only do it on the week-end, but using the fridge is a good way to make bread during the week I guess! But the result is worth the wait :p
  4. By the way, for scoring, I use this! Very efficient :D Very thin, doesn't stick much... And razor sharp, obviously!

  5. schanop

    schanop Founding Member

    When the dough is mainly white flour, its growth is quite significant, even after folding a few times in the first two to three hours. Usually at least the last hour or two, it is left alone. Probably some where 50% -75%, I think. A mix of whole grain and white grows a little less, but at least it should grow 30% in size.

    I still am experimenting with amount of degassing/knocking down dough before shaping to put in banneton. Definitely, they all grow quite a fair bit over night in the fridge whether I knock it back hard before shaping, or just lightly.

    I will take more photos of the process next time :pop
  6. Thank you for the precisions ;)
    And yes, we want more photos :D!
  7. schanop

    schanop Founding Member

    Here was my sourdough procedure from last week. First of, I took the starter out of the fridge and let it warm up for a long while. There was a good amount of bubble, and smell was rather sweet with a bit of tang.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Next step was dividing it up into two halves, one to go back in the fridge, another for the dough. I then fed both each with 15g rye, 15g white (but I thought I accidentally put 15g whole grain), and 30g water. Mixed them and left to ferment.
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    After 12 hours, starter has some amount of bubble. I fed it again, 30g rye, 30g flour, and 60g water and wait another 6 hours. It had quite a good amount of bubble and passed the floating test.
    [​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG]

    Next was 530g of water mixed with the starter, and dumped it on top of 800g flour 50% white 50% wholegrain in Magimix. Mixed just about half minute until it all came together and let it autolyse for an hour.
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Then added salt, and mixed again quickly. Transferred to a bowl, and kept doing stretch and fold every half hour.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    I had to go out of home for a bit, so I put the dough in the fridge at 3 hours after first mixing. After about 5 hours, with extra rise in the fridge, dough rose quite fine. It was bigger in volume, may be 30%.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Then it was preshaping time. I planned for two small dough, one a boule, another, a batard. Then, they went into banneton and back into a fridge for overnight cold rise.
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    The day after, the dough rose nicely and looked ready for baking. Transferred them onto perforated tray and slashed. I decided to bake them together at the same time, since they were small dough. Slashing on boule was a bit wonky, but kinda all right on batard.
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Put them in preheated combi oven at 100% moisture 225*C for 10 minutes, and 0% moisture 225*C for about another 15 for these two. Colour was fine, crust was thin and shattery, crumb was soft and moist, but not that opened just yet.

    It was fun nevertheless, and looking forward to more sourdough fun at home.
  8. Looks great! It seems that you're starting to master the process :D The "inside of the bread" (how the hell do you call that? In french it's "mie de pain". Is that what you call the "crumb"?) looks really good!
    I did one yesterday, my result is far from yours :p Very big bubbles on top of the bread (in the inside) but very dense everywhere else. Still working on it!
    The worst part with making home bread? You have to wait a few minutes before eating it!
    Anyway, how's your sword going with that bread :D?
  9. Awesome work Chanop. I am amazed you have a patience to do this. I would love to, but don't have the time really. It was enough of an effort to find half a day to make some Brioche buns a few weeks ago.
  10. Those are beautiful! I like the new bread knife, too. :)
  11. schanop

    schanop Founding Member

    You are right, benichka. It is "crumb" for inside, and "crust" for outside :like I still am trying to go higher hydration, more water, more retarding time, to try to get gelatinised moist open crumb. Probably it is going to be a while before I will get there.

    Alex, from what I have read, fridge is your friend in sourdough baking at home. Many parts of the process, you can put the dough in the fridge, the starter in the fridge, to slow things down. The actual interaction time with the dough is not much, it is more of a waiting time, generally. Also if you have stand mixer, you can use that instead of stretch and fold as far as I know, but results may be different.

    Thank, Doc.

    Using Güde is so different to using a suji for cutting crusty bread. Güde just goes through, like cold butter.
  12. Maybe ill give it a go over the christmas break

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