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Knife company recommendation for paring nakiri and 8 inch chefs.

Discussion in 'The Kitchen Knife' started by coors86, May 19, 2018.

  1. 1)Pro or home cook?
    Home cook but work as a banquet chef
    2)What kind of knife do you want? (Gyuto, Santuko, Petty, Paring, Sujihiki, etc.)
    Paring, Nakiri, and chefs knife
    3) What size knife do you want?
    Paring anywhere from 80 to 105 mm. So 3 to 4.25 inches. Nakiri 6 to 8 inches. Chefs 8 to 8.5 inches
    4)How much do you want to spend?
    Paring 50 to 100 dollars. Nakiri 100 to 200 dollars and the chefs knife 100 to 250 dollars; 300 at the max!!!
    5) Do you prefer all stainless, stainless clad over reactive carbon, or all reactive carbon construction?
    stainless steel or a semi stainless. like vg5, vg10, aus10, sg2/p2 and hap40.
    6)Do you prefer Western or Japanese handle?
    western since haven't had much luck with d shaped handles for my left hand.
    7)What are your main knife/knives now?
    3.5 inch paring, 6 inch nakiri with a short handle from kai, and a 8 inch dalstrong phantom chefs knife Knives i don't use 8 inch henckle chef and a 6 inch kai chef
    8)Are your knife skills excellent, good, fair?
    Fair I've learn the hard way to cut properly with a knife.
    9)What cutting techniques do you prefer? Are you a rocker, chopper or push/pull cutter?
    I use a mix of styles, chopping, rocking and slicing, with little to rare use of push pull or dragging.
    10)Do you know how to sharpen?
    Yes I'm currently using a tri oil stone system from Norton that's at work. Hopefully soon i be able to get a set of shapton pros.

    Additional info;
    I mostly use my knife/knives for salad prep, along with deli meats and cheeses, and also slicing meat on a carving station. 10 to 12 hours a day, doing small dice on product like tomatoes onions and sometimes cucumbers, deli meats and cheeses. Usually like 1 to 3 cases a piece deepening on how big the party is. My chef knife usually lasts a month before i have to use a fine Indian stone for touch ups otherwise mostly use a steel honing rod to help with the edge. So looking for a better or a upgrade in steel from the aus8a steel and 420hc steel that I'm currently using.

    I prefer thinner style knives with a lighter weight handle with a edge anywhere from 10 to 16 degrees on each side of the blade. I use a pinch grip for cutting and when i get fatigued i use a higher pinch grip on the blade. So the handle being comfortable besides have a great steel is what im looking for that isnt north of 300.
    The few knives i was looking at was the miyabi mizu, yaxell gou and yaxell tsuchimon. I was looking at shun kanso but wasnt sure about the choil height of the blade.
    Blade height I'm looking for is from 44.5 to 48 mm at the choil on the chefs and nakiri knives. Ede retenition i would like anywhere from a couple of months to 6 months. I don't really abuse my knives but also sometimes use them for everything too. The kais with 420hc lasted 6 months before needed sharping now its about 3 months and the dalstrong with aus8a only lasts a month.
    I would prefer knives without bolsters but haven't been able to find many, mostly only knives with half bolsters and end caps which i know makes the knife handle heavy which is what I'm trying to avoid again.

    Weight of knife i would like to be anywhere from 4.5 to 7 ounces for both the nakiri and chefs knife. Since i might be getting a western handle instead of a d handle weight would be nice between 6 and 7 ounces. My old henckle was 7.5 ounces and it was decent but the full bolster made me not use it anymore.
    Thickness of spine anywhere from 1.5 to 2.5 mm is what I'm looking for. I never used 3 mm thick spine before since it sounded to thick for my liking so have no experience over 2 mm.
    I like the flatter profile on the chefs knife vs the big curve on the belly that you see on German style blades. Yes i do some rocking so i do like a little belly curve just not a lot. Like a thin tip vs a heavy thick style tip on a knife for a chefs. If Global knives didn't have such a small handle i would just buy them but they hurt my hand and automatically cause me fatigue after little use. So hand size is medium to large not small. I was looking at the kohetsu blue number 2 steel with stainless cladding but have to many people not using my blades correctly and afraid they will rust since they don't clean them after use sometimes.

    I think I've narrowed it down to the miyabi mizu or yaxell gou knives but not sure yet, was wondering if someone could help me out or try and recommend a different knife company. And yes i know miyabi's don't have nakiri so i would have to get a santoku in its place but mainly trying to decide for a chefs knife and a paring knife are the main two knives i need and would like to get a nakiri's to replace my kai knife. Thank you for your time and help, Cory.
    Also how awkward is it to use a 120/130 mm petty as a paring knife to peel and cut potatoes? I am finding some nice gyutos on the site but notice from the company im looking at they only have the 120 to 150 mm petty knifes, which are big compared to what im use to such as a smaller petty/paring knife.
     
  2. Rick

    Rick aka Pensacola Tiger Founding Member Gold Contributor

    Hi, Cory. Welcome to the Fora.

    I've got a few questions and you've given a lot of information to sort through, so bear with me if I ask something you've already answered.

    I infer from your asking about a "knife company" that you are looking to get your new knives from a single maker, is that right? There's nothing wrong with that, but it makes it harder to give specific recommendations.

    You wrote that your knives will be used by your coworkers from time to time, either with your permission or not. So 100% stainless is probably a definite requirement.

    To answer your question about using a 120/130 petty as an in-hand paring knife, I have to say that it can be done, but it will be, as you imagined, awkward. I've seen videos of chef's using a 240 gyuto in-hand, and I will respectfully let them continue to do it while I use my 3" paring knife. So my recommendation is to stay with a paring knife.

    I have owned two Yaxell knives - a Ran santoku and a Zen gyuto - and they are both handle heavy, so much so that I didn't care to use them over my other knives. I think the Yaxell Gou will be handle heavy as well.

    I have also owned a couple of Miyabi Birchwood knives - a paring knife and an 8" chef's - and they were much better balanced than the Yaxells. BTW, the Miyabi Mizu has a D-handle, which you wrote you didn't care for as a lefty.

    Both the Yaxell and Miyabi knives have an SG2 core, which is hardened to the point where you should not use a steel or rod hone on them when the edge needs attention, as you can easily chip the edge using just a bit more pressure than necessary. A strop or 5000+ grit waterstone are the better options for those knives. I'd also worry about your coworkers using a knife with a delicate core steel, as they will not withstand much abuse.

    To give you something to think about, I've found that if I have a 210 gyuto / 8" chef's knife, that a nakiri is superfluous. Nakiris are fun to use, but anything that I can do with a nakiri I can do with a 210 gyuto.

    Rick
     
  3. Hello and thank you for your response and I am sorry if i wasn't clear on a couple of things but was trying to get as much info as possible in the thread.
    Yes i do want all my knives to be from the same line or manufacture. I do agree with you on that what ever i can do with a nakiri i can do with a chefs knife as well but for some reason the nakiri seems easier to use for quick cuts with cucumbers and slicing onions at work.

    I mainly only use my knives but every once in a while my brother uses them and doesn't clean them right away if not at all and im the only one cleaning them. I have yelled at my other coworkers enough that they dont even touch them anymore lol. So yes a full stainless or a semi stainless steel would be my choice for knives. I do like the idea of stainless cladded carbon steels but at the same time would like to stick with something im familiar with and dont have to worry about rusting.

    The d shape handle im use to on my dalstrong phantom has a ver pronouced arch on the it that does sit well with my left hand while cutting product. I dont believe noraml d shaped handles are as aggressive so i wouldnt mind trying another but not my first choich unless i thought it was worth it like the mizu or birchwood from miyabi.

    I could never get a clear answer or info about yawell knives to make a decision like if theyre very handle heavy or not, and if they are as much as you say so then i might steer clear of them, because i would like to find a company that has a more even balance to them.

    With my small knife such as the paring up to 4 inches is a little awkward but very usable which i can not see a 120/130 mm petty being the same. So yes would like to stick with like a 3.5 inch paring if i can find one.

    I am not having that much to finding a chef knife from companies but they either doing have a paring knife or the nakiri.
    Also another question is what do you think or have any experience with the toijor brand of knives.I do see that they do have a paring, nakiri and a chefs knife in the same line, but have heard that they have fit and finish issues with their knives.
    Knives without bolsters would be nice but haven't really found any on the internet, and if so they're way out of my budget or look like they have bad fit and finish issues. Like the kohetsu blue number 2 knives.

    Iseya knives looked interesting but really dont know the company and how well they are overall. So there's options out there just cant seem to find the right one now so I am looking for suggestions or recommendations.
    Thank you for your time Cory.
     
  4. Rick

    Rick aka Pensacola Tiger Founding Member Gold Contributor

    I've looked for a single product line that has all three of the knives you are looking for. Not many within your budget. Here's what I found:

    The Ryusen Bonten Unryu from Knives & Stones are at the upper end of your budget. I have a 240 gyuto and it has superior fit and finish - rivets are completely flush to the scales and the tang/scale tradition is seamless. It is an excellent cutter. http://www.knivesandstones.com/bonten-unryu/ All three of the knife styles are in stock. Shipping is free for orders over $300 AUD and takes about a week to get to the US. I've purchased several knives from there and never had a problem. The owner, James, is a stand up guy.

    The JCK Natures Gekko Series (https://japanesechefsknife.com/collections/gekko) might be worth a look. Right now the paring knife is sold out, but the nakiri and gyuto are in stock. You might want to email the owner, Koki Iwahara, and inquire as to when the paring knife might be available.

    I've owned two Tojiro knives (a gyuto and a petty) and tough the fit and finish was rough, I had no issues with them. I did find the handles were blocky and not as comfortable as many other knives were. Sold them both.
     
  5. Thank you again for your time and suggestions I will definitely take a look and see if any of those would be a viable option for me.

    What are your thoughts about masamoto vg line or any of the Misono knives. They seem interesting but seeing that they have 70/30 grind instead of the 50/50 that I'm use to wasn't sure if that would be a hindering factor or not when getting a knife. So kind of said no to them.

    Yes that was the one problem I was running into that it seem that knives I was looking for were out of my budget, so figure I try a couple forums to see if anyone could give any suggestions and this place was the only one would help out and I am thankful and let you know if the above knife suggestions will be options for me. Cory
     
  6. I checked out the knives that were suggested above and the Gekko knives look pretty nice and seem like they would fit the bill. I emailed the company and they said the paring should be in stock hopefully anywhere from 30 to 60 days.

    A rough estimate that it might come to 220 plus shipping for all three knives. I'm not sure what the pairing normally goes for but if it's 80 to 100 it be about 220 to 320 for everything, which isn't bad. So that's one company that I might go with instead of the miyabi or Yaxell. But for some reason I keep coming back to them as a option.

    Now just need to get some stones. I was looking at the Shapton pros like the 120, 1k and 5k stones. The 120 would be rarely be used but would have it if a knife ever gets that dull. Would a 8k stone be worth looking into as well or should I get a strop instead when I go shopping for stones?
     
  7. Rick

    Rick aka Pensacola Tiger Founding Member Gold Contributor

    Ah, stones. Another rabbit hole. Again, I infer that you want splash and go stones rather than soakers.

    120 grit is too coarse for a jump to 1k. If you stay with the Shapton Pro series, get the 320. You'll also need something to flatten them with, perhaps an Atoma 140.
     
  8. Ya i was thinking about the 320 but ive only been using a fine Indian stone for touch ups since my knives haven;t gotten that dull. So was just thinking if they ever do that the 120 would get a edge on them pretty quick before i get them sharp again.
    Yes i would prefer splash and go stones because i don't like dealing with oil or water that i have to keep adding or have to worry making a mess over my counter while sharping. I know that sounds maybe kind of dumb but that's but that's me.
    I was looking at the naniwa stones but i have decide i would go with the shaptons since i can get them between 35 and 40 a stone till i reach 8k then theyre like 50 or 60 or so then the 10k and up are 100 plus a stone; and have heard that last for years and would fit my needs the best.
    I was originally looking at the king and cerax combo stones but they're soaking stones and have heard people having problems with the kings, loading up and other things as well.
    Sorry if i come off as one sided or blunt, but have looked into and read about brands and picked what i like or have seen, and trying to go with what i think i will work the best for me but of courser if someone thinks there's a better option i would like to hear it as well.
     
  9. Also what are your thought on sandvik 13c26 steel vs vg10 if any sorry if its a random question.
     
  10. Rick

    Rick aka Pensacola Tiger Founding Member Gold Contributor

    You're still going to have to add water to a splash and go stone as you use it, so that new abrasives can be exposed, you just don't have to soak the stones fifteen or twenty minutes to get them ready to use (unless you permasoak).

    Yes, a 120 will eat metal faster than a 320, but the scratch pattern a 120 leaves will take a long time on a 1000 to polish out. Your decision, of course, but the only time I've ever used a stone lower than 320-500 was when I had a huge chip (~3 mm) to work out of an edge.

    All stones will load to some extent, depending on the softness of the steel being abraded. In my experience, the worst offender is soft stainless cladding. It's no big deal, a few passes with an Atoma takes care of it. My experience with King stones is that they don't load any faster than any other 1k stone. I'd be careful basing decisions on one or two opinions on an internet forum, mine included.

    As for 13c26 vs VG-10, it matters less about a particular steel and more on the heat treatment given it. Both steels can make excellent knives.
     
  11. Okay thank you for opinion, I have some deciding to do then and do a little bit more research before buying something.
    I was only asking about 13c26 since I saw miyabi had the evolution line with it and it look like a decent line of knives.
     
  12. Rick

    Rick aka Pensacola Tiger Founding Member Gold Contributor

    I've no experience with the Miyabi Evolution (FC61 steel), but I have used the Zwilling-Kramer knives in FC61 and can give Zwilling's treatment of it a thumbs up (Zwilling makes the Miyabi line of knives). Are you near a Sur la Table so that you can handle one?
     
  13. I believe ve there's one in Pittsburgh about a hour and half away from me I might have to take the drive up there sometime to try out their knives.
     
  14. Thank you for your responses, I've been trying to look at more knives and read some forums trying to help me decide. Right now my main focus is a 8 inch or a 210 mm chefs knife, for now since i have a hard time trying to decide on a brand, but would like like to find the other knives as well. I would prefer a yo handle but since i don't like bolsters will probably end up with a wa handle knife, but fit and finish is a deal breaker for me but like many have said sandpaper can fix my problem.

    I stumbled across the Masakage Yuki line of knives on the cktg site that looked promising in both for what i want in matching and also for some examples that have been recommenced to me to try and look at. My only issue would be is the really thick spine at the heel of the knife, but have heard that wouldn't be a hindrance to me and also that everything is sold out as well. For a yo handle the jck natures gekko line also looks promising. But of course one line is a yo with white #2 steel core with stainless cladding, while the other line is a yo handle with vg10 steel core.
    And yes don't know much about edges, but i like very sharp ones with low degree angles like 10 to 15 degrees per side.

    Sharpening experience is low but I've been doing it more and more so than i use to in the previous years, so it doesn't scare me and will be soon getting better stones than the house ones at work so i can get better experience on different stones than oil stones as well. Such as the shapton pro stones that i will be getting.

    I know this might be a dumb question and should know already but for some reason cant remember, but between hap40, sg2/r2, ps60, , aeb-l/13c26, vg10 and the blue and white carbon steels. What is better at edge retention holding and being sharper at the sames time? I know heat treat comes into play here so that might vary from knife to knife.

    For reason reason i might end up with Miyabi knives in the end or tojiro, but if I do not one of the two lines mentioned above will be chosen if they're in stock or maybe something like the kohetsu. Is where my head is at right now otherwise my decision is still in limbo because of all the choices and in the end not knowing more about the different feel of knives in the hand besides what i all ready know. But i have taken peoples thoughts and recommendations as dully noted and will still look around and see if i can make a sound choice that will suit my needs. Thank you for your time and help. Cory
     

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