Three gyutos

Since I am relatively new to the forum and still learning, I decided to contribute a bit of data for your enjoyment. I wanted to compare a few knives and this is the first “chapter”; 3 gyutos.

1) The first gyuto is a Gesshin Kagero 240 mm in cladded powder steel that I purchased from Jon at Japanese Knife Imports. He recommended it based on my priority towards edge retention. I did not know much about knives then (I still do not) and trusted his guidance. It turned out to be a wonderful suggestion. The edge retention is spectacular, and beyond that I particularly love the tapered handle (it is the only yo-gyuto I own) and the feel of the knife; it has a great balance, it feels substantial (I have learned that the lasers are not my favorites) and yet it performs wonderfully. The more I use it, the greater it is my affection for it.

2) The second gyuto is a Yoshimitsu Wa-Gyuto Damascus Blue steel II in 240 mm that I purchased from Takeshi Aoki at Aframestokyo. A few factors influenced me, the first one is the writings of keithsaltydog regarding knives made out of tamahagane steel (Yoshimitsu is known for making their own tamahagane), the second was reading about the Yoshimitsu brothers and their training in knife making, and the third was seeing what I feel it is a beautiful combination of kurouchi finish and a damascus layered finish below the shinogi. I love the knife and how it performs.

3) The third gyuto is familiar to many of you, but I did not have the opportunity to handle until recently when I received directly from Japan; a Masamoto KS wa-gyuto in 240 mm. I actually received a couple of years ago a custom order of a Masamoto KS sujihiki in 270 mm that was one of my first knives and still is one of my favorites. From the experience with it and the many references to the uber-famous KS gyuto I decided to get one since I really liked the profile. After some research since I could not get one state side I figured out how to get one directly in Japan thanks to a couple of postings in the forum and know it is here.

I made a few profile drawings in graph paper to compare them. The scale in the drawings is ~6 mm per edge of the squares in the paper with the profiles following a scale of 1:1 as you can see in the pictures. From here onwards I will designate the Gesshin Kagero as GK, the Masamoto as KS, and the Yoshimitsu Damascus as YD.

1) Hawatari measurement (length)
a. GK is 240 mm
b. KS is 255 mm
c. YD is 246 mm

2) Ago to Spine measurement (tall)
a. GK is 48.05 mm
b. KS is 48.75 mm
c. YD is 48.05 mm

3) Thickness measurement at neck-spine
a. GK is 2.65 mm
b. KS is 2.55 mm
c. YD is 3.78 mm

4) Thickness measurement at mid-spine
a. GK is 1.58 mm
b. KS is 2.06 mm
c. YD is 2.43 mm

5) Thickness measurement at tip-spine
a. GK is 0.30 mm
b. KS is 0.22 mm
c. YD is 0.22 mm

6) Total Weight and weight/length calculations
a. GK is 220 gr giving ~.92 gr/mm (biased by being a yo-gyuto)
b. KS is 179 gr giving ~.70 gr/mm
c. YD is 177 gr giving ~.72 gr/mm

7) Angle of Hamato towards Kissaki at Ago (Heel to Tip at Chin) with horizontal
a. GK has an angle of 4 degrees, increasing to 10 degrees at mid blade
b. KS has an angle of 4 degrees increasing to 7 degrees at mid blade
c. YD has an angle of 2 degrees increasing to 7 degrees at mid blade

8) Percent of rise of Kissaki from horizontal at Ago to horizontal of Mune (rise of tip from horizontal at heel to horizontal defined by the spine at neck)
a. GK kissaki rises ~65%
b. KS kissaki rises ~66%
c. YD kissaki rises ~56%

As you can see, the YD has a lower rise angle and kissaki than the GK and KS. Here are some pictures and profile comparisons





If any of you out there own these gyutos I would love to read your thoughs/opinions on them

 

WOW, way nice review. Thanks.

 

Would be nice to hear (or watch a video) your thoughts about how they cut?
It's fine to compare profiles and mm, as we are all knife nuts here, but a knife must cut things, so which one (and why) do you prefer?

 

Very nice!! Thank you for this!

 

What does one do with these measurements? Do you have any conclusions as to which end of any measurement scale is better?

 

The purpose of of he comparison was not to determine which one is better but to present differences and similarities in three gyutos that I have and particularly like. I am more comfortable presneting data for your review than my own opinion as it is subjective and not necesarily would reflect what each user would like in them. I can say that in the Kagero, I like the edge retention, the tapered handle (different from other yo gyutos) and the feeling of having a substantial blade, and aesthetically the clad line gives a beautiful contrast. In the Yoshimitsu I like the unusual combination of kurouchi finish with a ladder style of Damascus, the lower angle of raise seems to suit well my cutting style (I tend to pull more frequently, probably because i like using yanagibas) and I find the more acute tip very useful. In the Masamoto I find the profile beautiful the blade is almost austere which I find appealing. The three knives have different steels; the kagero is a powder steel with fantastic edge retention that makes life at home easier when you add the fact that is stainless. The Yoshimitsu cuts marvelously with very little food retention, and the Masamoto is a joy to sharpen to a screaming edge with very little effort. The Yoshimitsu is made of Aoko steel while the Masamoto uses Shiroko steel

 

Thank you for taking your time to compare these gyutos , usually when I compare knives I try to complete same tasks to give me better feel to evaluate them since sometimes numbers can be misleading . I wish that Kagero came in 270 wa handle

 

It would be nice to know what powdered steel it is. JKI description is just generic "powdered steel". AEBL, 13c26, 19c27, 14c28n, M390, Elmax, Vanax, S35VN, S125V, ZDP-189, GIN3 are all "powdered steel" and all with different properties and performance.

 

I believe Jon doesn't disclose the steel type for variety of reasons which I understand . A new alloy that was done right gets called " super steel " while other makers successful or not use the same steel and ride on the reputation or the hype created . Because of this reason it is treated as intellectual property or trade secret. I have personally experienced this with a certain steel from 2 makers while one was great the other one was bad , really bad .

 

I love your profile comparisons! And quantitative approach! (Though in the end it does come down to: how do they cut?)

 

yeah... i try to encourage people to talk to me about the steel. I've used all of this stuff extensively, so i can explain more about the feeling of sharpening, edge taking, etc. Otherwise, Mert pretty much summed up my view on it. Also, fwiw, aeb-l/13c26, 19c27/aeb-h, and ginsanko are not powdered steels.

 

John , thank you for the correction. However, the subjective description of the performance and sharpenability when it comes to the obsessive nature of kitchen knife collectors and makers needs to be fed by molecular compositions and carbide microscopy. That's the entire point of all the different steels we use. Most people on this board can put a molecule splitting edge on 1095 or white #1, but we make our ultimate judgment and preferences in significant part on knowing the steel composition.

Sorry about the harrangue, but details about steel, composition, carbide grain, etc. are what I and many others see as the essential minutae that draw us to this board and this hobby.

 

sure... i get it. I think you'll find that much of the time, when people talk to me, we do talk about the steel type though. But i'm pretty happy with how our system has worked out over the years. We have almost no returns ever, only a very small percentage of our knives end up being resold due to being disliked (well less than 1% over our company's lifetime), and in general, because of how we do things, we have a very well educated customer base. I think as a knifemaker (as you are), you probably are in a very different position than i am with regard to this though. If you have a way that works for you, by all means keep it up.